From the print and online editions of the nation's premier urban-policy magazine http://www.city-journal.org/cj-comments.xml?story=7979 Manhattan Institute I never thought that so called racism was a political move to separate by blacks or liberals. I figured that Blacks were another who did not want to get along with other who were different from their own people and were,for some just violent people period, just as people groups speak different languages. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15792 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15792 Fri, 04 May 2012 02:10:41 EDT The election of Barack Obama did not decrease race problems. It increased them. We need to get a white man back in the whitehouse. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15783 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15783 Thu, 03 May 2012 13:31:21 EDT Race is a reality and to read stupid conservatives glorifying the statist liberal left civil wrongs laws that violate individual & property rights is beyond appalling. Where do you think culture comes from ? When a particular race as a race hasn't advanced for thousands of years don't you begin to suspect that there may something wrong with it ? Of course there are all the individual exceptions that prove the general rule. Neoconservatism, which was started by National Review under the unlamented Buckley and now rules the GOP, has been a nonstop disaster at home and abroad. Their ultimate project seems to be to ratify the New Deal statist-collectivist order of Big Government at home and Empire abroad through Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace. When a rare intelligent thinker like Ayn Rand or Murray Rothbard or Ron Paul comes along to challenge the conventional unwisdom you fools scream your empty heads off denouncing that seer. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15782 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15782 Thu, 03 May 2012 13:19:35 EDT This is an intelligent, nuanced discussion of the issue of race. Things have drastically changed in this country since the 50s. While there will always be those who look with suspicion at others of a different phenotype, the American culture, in general, has long ago dropped its smug delegation of non-European appearance to second-class status. What we must now do is drop the race paradigm altogether and view others simply according to the "content of their character" as Martin Luther King eloquently implored us to do. The cultural values all hold in common: goodness, decency, honesty, integrity, diligence, etc., are what we must cultivate and encourage. Superficial differences notwithstanding, these values are what will preserve our nation and keep us together as one people. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15779 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15779 Thu, 03 May 2012 11:37:18 EDT To sum up about Trayvon Martin: he had been suspended from school three times for drug use, he carried women's rings and earrings along with a screwdriver (for opening lockers) in his backpack in school. His mother, together with a PR firm, quickly copyrighted "We are Trayvon Martin", "Trayvon Martin lives" and similar, to make money from t-shirts and other products after his death. He was on his way to a criminal career and jail, but this way she could make money off him instead, thanks to the media. According to the two witnesses, he attacked and beat Zimmerman to the ground. Something the media hide from us. If you look up his pictures in Google Images, you will find this, Trayvon Martin giving the camera the finger and posting it online: http://s18.postimage.org/62645vilz/image.jpg Not very angelic, is it? So the media stick to the best picture they could find of him - when he was twelve. His handle in twitter was NO_LIMIT_NIGGA. This account was deleted after his death to hide his nature. Thanks to The Daily Caller, you can still find his twitter messages. For example: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/ "fuck a bitch. any bitch. who you want? take yo pick, but you gone have to take yo time." "Hahaha Hoe u got USED fa yo loose ass p*ssy.! Tighten up.! #Literally" "#youthetype of b*tch that give up your p*ssy for free and think its cool #p*ssyaintfree #fb" "We in need of some trees … Wea tha weed man" "I got game for you young hoes, don’t grow to be a dumm hoe" "2 glock 40's.... bitch u got 80 problems" "Yo panties leakn?? I lik dat:))" "Da less friendz da betta.... cuz @ da end of da day it only mean u gon b dat much closer 2 da ppl u fucks w/" "@La_VidaBella: I’ll beat the pu**sy up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up" "d*ck slipping out when you got her in doggy? Either u trying to long stroke wit a short d*ck or she need to arch tha …" "I’ll slap a girl if she said suck my toes wtf, she must be giving some great dome for some sh*t like that òÕ òÕ òÕ" "A f*ck n*gga is FOREVER a f*ck n*gga! Fu*ck ‘em!" "U WANNA SEE SUM CASH? WELL LEMME SEE SUM ASS" "Upset I cannot give head for 6-8 weeks wtf" "puss ass crackas ." "Its crazy how i was jus pissed off,snappin…then i smoked..now im happy:) ha" "If you don’t like #weed. #YoureNotMyType" "When Im On That SMOKE, Im Going Super-HAM!" "f*ck dat wea da weedman at??" "Some of y’all need a Blunt!" "R E T W E E T If you smoke #weed." "White People’(s) Call Police , Black People’(s) Call There Cousin" "#youthetype of bitch that give up your pussy for free and think its cool #pussyaintfree" "A fuck nigga is FOREVER a fuck nigga! Fuck 'em!" http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15778 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15778 Thu, 03 May 2012 10:58:19 EDT Mr. Stein wants to focus on culture to explain the divide between races. Let's have a real conversation and pay attention to the physical and intelligence differences too. Equality is a legal and spiritual concept that has nothing to do with evolution which has produced a diversity of human strands, each with its own unique genetic blueprint which produce unequal races in all measurable standards. An honest discussion of race should start with an open discussion of the various inequalities of the races. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15769 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15769 Thu, 03 May 2012 03:20:11 EDT Yes, it is black problems overall that we should talk about, IF it is useful for ordinary Americans to 'talk' about anything black and white in our country, which I doubt. The logoshere 'talking' about the Zimmerman case pretty well disprives the merits of Holder's self-indulgent little rant. Can anyone doubt that such talking has worsened relations between blacks and other groups? And accordingly, Holder's comments focused on race are in effect a very unuseful red herring to the real problem. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15495 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15495 Sat, 21 Apr 2012 10:01:21 EDT If during the next few years, scientists prove that innate genetic differences are largely responsible for the well known differences in mental ability between ethnoracial groups--then will it still be considered "racist" to believe that Blacks tend to be innately less intelligent and innately less capable in academic endeavors than Whites and Asians? In other words, what if the "RACIST VIEWPOINT" actually accurately expresses the truth about the cause for mental ability differences between ethnoracial groups??? According to academic experts (e.g. Professors Nancy Segal, Thomas Bouchard, Dorret Boomsma, Ian Deary, Robert Plomin) general cognitive ability is a HIGHLY HERITABLE (i.e. highly genetically determined) human trait; mental ability is known to be about as heritable as height. Also there is evidence that the same group of genes that cause differences in general mental ability also cause differences in math ability, reading ability, and academic achievement (Professor Robert Plomin calls these genes "generalist genes for g"). There are two major theories on WHY ethnoracial groups differ in mental ability and academic achievement: 1) Hereditarian/Galtonian (“racist”) theory of racial hierarchy in innate mental ability (the first major proponent was Francis Galton): Ethnoracial groups differ in cognitive ability mainly because they adapted to differing environmental and social challenges by selecting for different gene alleles that affect the development and expression of IQ-type intelligence; in comparison to these gene differences, environmental/cultural differences play a significant but relatively minor role in determining ethnoracial group differences in mental ability. 2) Environmentalist/Boasian (“antiracist”) theory of racial equality in innate mental ability (the first major proponent was Franz Boas): Ethnoracial groups differ in cognitive ability because they have adapted to differing environmental and social challenges by evolving different cultural traits that affect the development of IQ-type intelligence; there are absolutely no significant innate genetic differences between ethnoracial groups in regard to mental ability. I suspect that Harry Stein adheres to the Environmentalist/Boasian viewpoint and therefore he probably agrees with most liberals and with many conservatives (especially most of the neocon conservatives) who profess to believe that Blacks are really just as smart as any other ethnoracial group (including high achieving groups such as Jews and Chinese) but that Blacks just SEEM to be less intelligent because their culture/environment is so messed up, we just have to fix up the family structure and fix up the schools and every ethnoracial group will be equal someday... In contrast, the opposing Hereditarian/Galtonian camp takes a much more skeptical view, they suspect that some groups will always tend to be of relatively lower IQs (Blacks and Hispanics) and some groups will always tend to be of relatively higher IQs (Jews and Chinese). The Hereditarian/Galtonian camp includes academics like Professors Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton, Hans Eysenck, Richard Lynn, Linda Gottfredson, Henry Harpending, and Neven Sesardic. Also several bloggers and journalists have raised the Hereditarian/Galtonian viewpoint including Steve Sailer, John Derbyshire, Will Saletan, Andrew Sullivan, Marty Nemko, and Nicholas Wade. The Hereditarian/Galtonian viewpoint is of course favored by most of the writers at "race-realist" conservative websites such Alternative Right, V-Dare, American Renaissance and TakiMag. For those who are interested in learning more about the Hereditarian/Galtonian viewpoint, several articles are freely available in pdf format on the websites of the following three professors: J. Philippe Rushton, Linda Gottfredson, and Neven Sesardic http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15178 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15178 Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:44:06 EDT "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." --Martin Luther King Jr. Well Dr. King, I also have a dream - a dream that one day white people will get over their insecurities about people who are not white and treat people based on their character instead of stereotyping an entire group of people. I'm a white man who doesn't shudder in fear when a black man walks by me at night. I can only hope one day that other people who look like me will gather enough confidence and courage to do the same. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15176 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15176 Thu, 12 Apr 2012 11:24:06 EDT there was a black female commedienne on a cable network a few years back who said white people are like the husband that at the end of the evening will agree with anything his wife says to avoid continuing the fight they've had all evening. She wants to keep talking about it and he just says okay - whatever you say honey. (She, of course, said it better.) What is there left to say that hasn't been already said a thousand times. But,Thabo - instead of referring to an article no one is going to take the time to track down, make your case or point without accusing other positions as lies. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15136 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15136 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 04:09:34 EDT This is subtly racist - by trying to turn the issue of continuing racism in USA into a values one of Black people. I draw your attention to this study which shows that US employers would rather hire a White ex-con than an upstanding Black man. http://bit.ly/qJp68u - this makes your rhetoric a blatant lie. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15133 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15133 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 19:03:58 EDT Eric Holder is a mulatto from the West Indies. Obama is a mulatto from Hawaii. Once thing you don't seem to know about Mulatto Elites is that they are mainly concerned with equality with their white class peers. They do NOT care about the working class or poor of ANY "race." Mulatto Elites as a group despise the black masses and their large criminal element but need them to gain power and privileges from white elites. They need black political support in order for white elites to pay attention to them. White elites like this arrangement because it is nicer to deal with a mulatto than a black. Why do you think the mulatto Melissa Harris-Perry has become the "black" princess of MSNBC? http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15118 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15118 Sun, 08 Apr 2012 12:54:19 EDT The last thing Holder, Obama and their ilk want is a serious conversation on race. The only reason non-blacks are hesitant to talk about race is the punishment--both professional and social--that such talk brings. You want an honest conversation on race? Drop the constant whines of "racism" every time someone says anything not in line with the Jackson/Sharpton/Wright meme and stop with the sanctions. Then, and only then, can we as a country seriously discuss race and its corrolary, culture. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15110 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15110 Sat, 07 Apr 2012 09:18:05 EDT Pretty good article, but Stein does a preemptive cringe with these words: "No one in his right mind would suggest ... that [Trayvon's] past has the remotest bearing on the events of that night." Stein sort of cancels his cringe with what follows: "[T]here’s a valid reason why a black teen in a strange neighborhood is likely to arouse greater suspicion�"and, yes, fear�"than a white one: he is far more likely to be up to no good." And that's not merely a general remark -- there's indication that it's directly applicable in this case, one indication being the evidence that Trayvon had already embarked upon the thug life, evidence that Stein himself quotes. So it's plausible that Trayvon acted like a thug towards that "white Hispanic," George Zimmerman. For the rest of us, there's more potent wisdom in an article by John Derbyshire on advice from a non-black parent to non-black offspring: http://takimag.com/article/the_talk_nonblack_version_john_derbyshire#axzz1rEPy6YVP See, especially, Derbyshire's point #10. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15102 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15102 Fri, 06 Apr 2012 21:27:47 EDT Ringo - stop being a douche. Stop citing House Negroes like Sowell, for general Negro depravity. He blames Black patholgies on "Rednecks". Whites. When the REAL problem is Negro genetics. Why are you still lclinging to failure, and disaster? Stop being a craven little tool. Sowel is merely a Black Herrng. no one NEEDS him. No one needs Negroes at ALL. Negroes. Destroyers of Worlds. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15073 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15073 Fri, 06 Apr 2012 10:14:58 EDT Why aren't you doing a story on how 90 year old Bob, and 85 year old Nancy Strait, of Oklahoma, were brutally attacked and beaten by 19 year old Tyrone Woodfork, and a few of his fellow Trayvon's, when their home was invaded by these "poor youths", to steal a few little items? Bob, in a wheel chair, was beaten into a coma. That poor man is still clinging to life. 90 years old. Nancy was beaten and RAPED TO DEATH. Why aren't you doing stories on this outrage? Why aren't you detailng the horrific, and almost incomprehensible history of BLACK CRIME? Why diod you remove my post ABOUT the historic record of Black destruction? http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15071 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15071 Fri, 06 Apr 2012 10:09:16 EDT Meanwhile racebaiters like Jackson and Sharpton elicit hatred and inflame insanty throughout the black communities. Crimes committed by many of the feral youth inspired by these two evil men will further embed the distrust of young black men. Arrest Jackson and Sharpton for inciting violence. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15063 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15063 Fri, 06 Apr 2012 06:13:21 EDT Thomas Sowell wrote a great book on the subject of race and culture (and the difference between the two)...and it happens to be called "Race and Culture". Highly recommended. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15056 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15056 Fri, 06 Apr 2012 01:21:47 EDT Denise, "Negroes, as a Race, destroy EVERY PLACE they go, everywhere they go" -------------------------- Funny how it's always the dumbest white people who claim that black people inferior. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15053 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15053 Fri, 06 Apr 2012 01:13:40 EDT Stein touches on the reason for the problems in the black community when he discusses culture. This is old news of course. A good example/horrible warning can be read about in Mark Steyn's article in the Western Standard: "Preserving their way of life". http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/article.php?id=296 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15046 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15046 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 21:58:37 EDT So right on target http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15045 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15045 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 21:56:05 EDT I'm most impressed, in a horrified way, with Al Sharpton's staying power. If justice were truly served he would have been cashiered forthwith after the Tawana Brawley case, in which the reputations of several innocent men were ruined. Even accounting for media mendacity, it's hard to believe he continues to be received (along with that other grifter, Jesse Jackson) as the conscience of Black America. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15042 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15042 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 17:37:47 EDT TOO TRUE http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15041 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15041 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 17:27:51 EDT I wish Stein didn't feel that it was "equally damaging" that Zimmerman is "half-Hispanic." Unless we really root out the acceptability of prejudice when it's directed at "all-white" people too, we're not really addressing ugliness such as Holder's. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15040 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15040 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 16:59:13 EDT Eric Holder, and his Kenyan Muslim boss, HATE White poeple. HATE HATE HATE Whites. There is a 200 year, 100% consistent pattern of What Happens when Whits create a Nation. allow/import Blacks into White social orders. Whites eventually pity Negroes, extend "rights" and status, Negroes aquire power, and then slaughter all the Whites. Haiti, South Africa, Rhodesia.The Belgian Congo. Write about those histories, Stein. The USA s going the way of South Africa. FAST. I don't CARE about who screamed i the audio. Trayvon was casing the neighborhood. He was an incipient Typical Negro wannabe gangsta. He attacked Zimmerman, and Zimmerman killed him in LAWFUL, ans wel as Natural Rights self defense. All Zimmerman's done is prevent future crimes. He put a limit on a No Limit Nigga (St Trayvon's enchanting self description). http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15037 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15037 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 14:24:43 EDT The REAL problem is that when racial realities are discussed, in total frankness, and REAL WORLD DATE is brought into the conversation - EVERY-ONE freaks out. Racial differences are REAL, and PROFOUND. IQ is heritable. As well as intractable. Culture merges from genetic mandates. Humans are NOT tabula rasas. Cultures are created BY genetics - not the other way around. NATURE uber alles - not Nanny nuture. Negroes, as a Race, destroy EVERY PLACE they go, everywhere they go. Now let's see what your Moderators do with this. If this post is allowed - you are sincere. If this post is not - you are a lying, snivelling COWARD. And you won't be able to maintain your socially engineered lies much longer. The entire multi-culti disaster is crashing, and the Summer of 2012 is already shaping up as the Summer of the Trayvon Flash Mobs. YOU won't be exempt. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15036 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15036 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 14:15:12 EDT Glad to hear about your new book. Always look forward to your work. Will be first on my block to buy it. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15035 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15035 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 13:58:27 EDT The fraud of anti-racism strikes again. Anti-racism is nothing but a codeword for anti-white. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15034 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15034 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 13:57:54 EDT Do you have Negro Fatigue? NF is America's fastest-growing chronic fatigue syndrome. Know NF's 12 warning signs. Visit the Society to Ban Prejudice in Daily Life for more information. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15033 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15033 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 13:46:24 EDT "There is a certain class of race problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public." Booker T. Wahington (1911) http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15030 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15030 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 11:08:59 EDT The usual BS from Stein, who begins by getting the facts of the New Black Panther Party case wrong - the farcial efforts of the half-dozen members of the NBPP (their entire membership) was to stop BLACK voters from voting for that race traitor Barack Obama and continues by explaining the reasons why a yahoo would kill an unarmed 17 year old and then throws in the onligatory - "I'm not saying he should have died". Two years from now, when Zimmerman is aquitted by a jury that includes a few Cubans, Stein will then defend that. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15027 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15027 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 08:56:34 EDT The last time I got a traffic ticket (I got it the old fashioned way, I earned it), the policeman handed it to me for my signature and I noticed some blanks at the bottom of the ticket to denote my race. Those blanks are there because the police department requires that policeman to prove that he isn't racial-profiling, that he gives tickets to white and black people in proportional numbers. First, it's an instance of the bureaucratic principle of putting the burden of proof on the accused, in this case the traffic cop. Second, it means that if the policeman is running short of white traffic violaters he has to go out and pull over enough to balance his racial quota while ignoring traffic violations by black motorists whose tickets would aggravate his quota problem. This practice converts the task of preventing traffic accidents into the task of demonstrating lack of racial bias. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15026 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15026 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 08:40:59 EDT Interesting work with the audio. I can't really draw any conclusions. The scream from after the shot might be different in pitch because it's a different screamer, or because the screamer is all of a sudden mortally wounded. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15024 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15024 Wed, 04 Apr 2012 23:15:12 EDT The Democratic Party made an error when it nominated Obama, because it racialized national politics in a way that they had never been before. Now, the Democrats argue that to vote against Obama is racist. This forces otherwise tolerant and well-meaning white people to ask themselves "I have to vote Democratic to prove I'm not a racist? Does a Romney bumper sticker mean that I hate black people?" Is this the dialogue that Holder really wants us to have around the water cooler in the refreshment lounge? http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15023 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15023 Wed, 04 Apr 2012 22:35:50 EDT Eric Holder doesn't really want a conversation about race. He wants everyone to agree with him and his Liberal/Progressive allies. And don't you dare disagree, for if you do, you are mops assuredly -- you guessed it -- tracist. Ben Hartley http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15022 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15022 Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:42:52 EDT Chas Holman · Top Commenter For anyone that is interested…. I am an audio guy.. I took the 911 call with the most audio informatiion regarding screams, compressed it, ran it at half speed and pitch corected it 100 percent.. even though it runs slower (just a tenth over half speed) anyone with an ear for music can tell not a note has been changed.. Digital affords you this luxury. In the analog days we had to physically slow the tape/medium down and you lose pitch and clarity. Anyway, what I find most interesting is the ghastly scream at about 1:12 right after the final shot.\. THIS AUDIO IS NOT ENHANCED per sey.. not like enhancing a photo.. the only enhancing has been to adust volume levels so you don’t hurt your ear listening to everything at relative volume levels. There are a few swirling artifacts in this copy because I had to compres the wav file to a 128 kbps mp3 to fit on my page so you had a player to hear it on.. These artifacts are slight and will not distract. The 911 call as you have never heard it before, draw your own conclusions. Listen for the scream after the shot. soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11548279 Again, draw your own conclusions, I am not here to change any minds tonight. This exercise is just a way to access the call and hear things you would not of just listening to the raw recording. http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15021 http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=7979#15021 Wed, 04 Apr 2012 18:30:31 EDT